Shepherding a Child's Heart (Part 2) | Ep. 106

Do you ever stop to wonder why your children behave the way they do? Imagine the power of grasping the heart of the matter in your parenting journey. We're diving into the trenches of parenting by exploring why understanding our child's behavior is integral to bringing about lasting change. The Bible tells us that our hearts govern our behavior so we examine verses from Mark and Luke to grasp this truth more deeply. We draw parallels from Jesus' criticism of the Pharisees, who were known for their outwardly good behavior yet inwardly they were full of dead men’s bones, and how that principle still applies today. Remember, our children's actions reflect their hearts, and therein lies the key to real, profound transformation. 
 
Now, imagine a world where discipline is not just about punishment, but about setting boundaries (guard rails) and teaching our children about the direct consequences of their choices. We've got a lively conversation lined up discussing the distinction between discipline and punishment. We're also touching upon the power of consequences, those vital lessons that prepare our children for the real world. We navigate through the idea of consequences as a result, chosen by the person, of their actions rather than punishments imposed upon them. This viewpoint echoes the boundaries God has established for us, reminding us that we are active agents in our lives and that our choices indeed have consequences.
 
As we delve deeper, we see how God's boundaries in our lives guide us to Jesus our Savior, and the phenomenal gift of eternal life He offers to us if we choose to accept it. 

Are you ready for a thoughtful conversation about nature versus nurture, and how it plays out in child-rearing? We consider the structure of family life, family values, roles, and how they can influence our development, but never forget the importance of recognizing a child's involvement in the molding process. It's time to understand the role of innate qualities and personal experiences in shaping who we become based on our responses to life’s experiences. Let's continue our journey together as we navigate the rewarding yet challenging path of raising our children.

Transcript

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 0:03

The vision received was that of blood cells traveling throughout the body, supplying the much needed oxygen and other nutrients to the differing members of the body to fulfill their purpose. Once the blood cells are spent, they must return back to the heart to be refilled before being sent out again and fulfill their purpose. So in this book we get to another section and the section was called Getting to the Heart of the Behavior And when we read this many years ago we had just sort of, I think did we get into this book in Florida? I couldn't remember.

Patricia: 0:41

Yes.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 0:41

It was in Florida. Okay, so in Florida we had just come out of special education, and one of the things that special education taught us was FAB. Do you remember what that stands for?

Patricia: 0:54

Functional behavior. function. It was functional behavior. You had to report why a kid was doing the Y It was about the Y.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 1:02

It's called functional assessment of behavior, fab, we called it. And so in the educational setting, you know kids that had those proclivities to do things that were kind of abnormal, out of the norm. It wasn't just hey, you got to stop doing that, you got to stop cussing, you got to stop taking that, you got. We had to go deeper, we had to find out why are you doing that. Because even in the educational setting it's important that the person knows why they're doing it, to be able to come up with ways to not engage in that, to find an alternative that is more legal in a sense, more appropriate in a sense. And so it's called the functional assessment of behavior. But in this book that's what it reminded me of he emphasizes how the heart determines behavior.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 1:57

I completely agree with that. We're not just these natural beings where the body is doing things. You know the body is controlled by the mind, but I believe the heart is what controls the body. Whatever it is that you're doing in life is because deep down in your heart you believe that that's what should be done, that's how we should go about doing it. It's something in your heart. So let's read two verses Mark, chapter seven, verses 20 through 23. And then we can also read Luke, chapter 645. And whenever you're ready, we can read those 20 through 23,.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 2:47

Mark 720 through 23.

Lydia: 2:49

Okay, I'm reading modern, modern King James, in case you're confused about the wording. And he said that which comes out of the man is what defiles the man. for from within, out of the heart of men, perceived evil thoughts, adulteries, pornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, levitiousness and evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness all these evil things pass out from inside and defile the man.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 3:28

And that right there is a biblical foundation that explains the behavior of man. It is not merely an issue of the things that he's doing on the outside. lasciviousness, fornications, murders, thefts, all of these things, as horrible as they are, did not start on the outside. They started on the inside. Jesus revealed this to us And that's why, in this, when we're, when we're trying to parent and raise our children, we want to address the heart of the matter, not merely the behavior. Otherwise, we won't change what these things are. And what is saying Luke 645?

Patricia: 4:10

A good man, out of the good treasure of his heart, bring in forth that which is good. And an evil man, out of the evil treasure of his heart, bring it. bring it forth, that which is evil. Or out of the abundance of the heart, is his mouth speaking? That's right.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 4:27

Now those two scriptures to me are the foundation for the next things that I'm going to state right now. They're very, very important. Number one what children say, what children do, no matter how cute they are, no matter how cuddly they are, no matter how precious they are in your sight, the things that they say and do is a reflection of their heart and you need to come to terms with that. They're not perfect cause their hearts are not perfect. They can do some evil things. They can lie straight up to your face. They can steal right behind your back. They can hide truth from you that you should know or need to know so that they can try to get away with something. They'll throw somebody else under the bus so that they don't get disciplined or in trouble. Why? Because it's a reflection of their heart and it must be addressed, It must be confronted.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 5:28

Otherwise, if we stick to external behavior modifications, you're teaching that child how to get away with things, because you're never addressing the heart. If you keep giving him that external carrot stick, that candy, that this oh I know how Mrs Billingsley just wants me to behave, because if I just do what she wants me to do, I'm going to get a candy out of it, But really, when I leave, I'm going to continue to do what I want to do, behave how I want to behave. Number two behavior is not the basic issue, It's just a manifestation. Number three come to terms with that. The attitudes and the issues of a man or woman's heart I'm speaking in generality. In a man's heart is what drives his behavior. Number four any change in behavior that does not stem from a change in heart is what Jesus called the Pharisees. Anybody remember what he called them so often?

Lydia: 6:44

Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 6:47

Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites. You dress yourselves on the outside so everybody can look up to you, so highly esteem you. you pray these prayers out in the open, but inside your dead men's bones. That is always been the issue of the God of Abraham, isaac and Jacob. It has always been the heart of Israel. Number five Parents shepherding our children.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 7:17

We must help our children understand how their straying heart results in their wrong behavior. They have to understand that. That's why you did that, that's why you stole that, that's why you took that back from from your friend who came over to spend a time with you and you wouldn't share that. Because your heart strayed, whether it was in pride, whether it was in vanity, whether it's whatever. They have to understand why they did that and realize that they need someone to help them rectify the issues of their heart.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 7:53

Because, though, the other major thing that this, this book, really emphasizes, not only do they need to understand why, they need to understand how do they get help, and they do and and this book emphasizes that you need to direct them to Jesus. Jesus is the one who's going to save them from their sins. He is the one that's going to help them overcome the attitudes and the issues of their heart, if, if, you willingly allow him to work in you to do those things. And then, number six, our disciplining must not neglect to address the attitudes of the heart, because that's what many, many parents do. They discipline to just stop in the moment, the behavior, but they never address why. And so all we're teaching that child is How do I be more sneaky so that I don't get caught, so that I don't get that, that paddle that they take away my phone. Have to address the issues, yeah.

Patricia: 8:58

Comment on that when we were punished, I don't know if it was every time.

Lydia: 9:04

I'm not gonna remember every instance, but in general I do remember. if we were ever Taken aside to be disciplined, you guys often would ask us Do you know why you're getting paddled right now?

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 9:15

Mm-hmm.

Lydia: 9:15

Do you know why we took this away from you? You and sometimes it wasn't in the moment. Sometimes you did have to address the behavior in the moment right in front of someone took away the technology, You turn off the TV. But there would be a follow-up discussion at some point if it wasn't in the moment. So we kind of all knew We're going to be asked this, so you better figure out the answer.

Lydia: 9:41

So, I just I could speak for me. I don't know necessarily about my other siblings, but I do think all of us at some point reached an age where You have you learned okay the reflection is a part of it as well Where you wouldn't be asked the same principles you guys had, even in church not when we were sitting necessarily or misbehaving, but We weren't just passively listening to the message you would ask us What did you get out of it?

Lydia: 10:08

Right made us think about it. So the same thing applied with discipline. We had to think about why are we getting this discipline?

Patricia: 10:15

Etc.

Lydia: 10:15

What was it that caused this? right consequence, so to speak and hopefully.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 10:21

There were times where you didn't get discipline, But we just had a conversation. Oh yeah, that too.

Lydia: 10:25

Okay, it wasn't always discipline.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 10:27

sometimes, It wasn't always that way.

Lydia: 10:31

You often did give warnings. That's another thing. Warnings were a thing. So if we got disciplined for something, it usually was Because we had been warned or because an expectation had already been established. So, for example, when we were older. When you're young, maybe a SWAT, but when we were older, electronics was the thing that was the best punishment for us. Because we're older, you grow out of that at some point and that seems to be the thing that you value the most right So one of the expectations was in our house.

Lydia: 11:09

We had chores. We were expected to have our room in a specific state and we were expected.

Lydia: 11:16

If it was our day to do chores, we did all the chores. If there was a chance that we did not do our chores, we would get some warnings. We might get woken up after we had gone to bed to go finish sweeping or whatever it was, but Sometimes it eventually would lead to a bigger consequence of okay, this is a pattern of rebellion at this point, because we have said over and over, we have warned you time and time again, you're still not doing it.

Lydia: 11:42

So that's actually how we lost our privilege for allowance, if you remember that, because we convinced you to give an allowance for chores and We were well, we tried it for a very short while.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 11:53

I wasn't for it. It didn't work and so I stopped it because it was an extrinsic motivation. It's not what I wanted.

Lydia: 11:59

Yeah, yeah, so there's. Those are many examples that come to mind, but the discussion aspect, yes that was very big in this house.

Patricia: 12:07

And I'm glad you changed your wording. It's not punishment, it's a consequence.

Lydia: 12:12

Okay, it's, okay, it's, it's.

Patricia: 12:14

it makes me it's like fingernails going down the chalkboard, because we went out of our way to explain to you guys It's not a punishment. You're choosing this consequence because you chose to not regard our instruction right. Versus. we're just punishing you, right?

Lydia: 12:31

I'm using as like in the sense of the maybe it's because I'm watching too much.

Patricia: 12:36

Yeah, but I was thinking.

Lydia: 12:38

Punishment. But that's what I meant. It's a consequence. So, obviously, if you commit a crime, you are punished, but you, by doing that action, have subjected yourself to the law, to the consequence. We call it punishment, but it is a consequence. Yeah, I'm saying that's synonymously. Okay, so just to clarify That's fine, that's fine.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 12:59

So that's where this other book really comes into play boundaries with kids. One of the ways that we establish boundaries with with the kids is we required some discipline of them, and when I say discipline, I don't mean swatting. Discipline and you mention chores. You were required to do certain amount of chores in the home, whether it was cleaning your room, whether it was doing the dishes for the night or whatever. The word discipline, okay, it's not just about swatting. Can anybody tell me what is the root word of discipline?

Patricia: 13:35

Being diligent, being step-fast.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 13:38

Okay, you're thinking way too heavy right now. Thank you, discipline. What's the root word of discipline? Disciple. Thank you. Discipline in one's life is us discipling you. That's important. It's not just all always about swatting.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 13:57

So if you did get what my wife has termed, consequences is very appropriate. We set boundaries. It's like God it God established boundaries in in in all mankind's lives. He says, hey, you do this, you're gonna be blessed. You do this, you're gonna be cursed. You know, choose you this day, who you will serve life on one hand, death on the other. The boundaries have been set.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 14:26

If you want to walk in sin, I'm telling you that because I love you that the wages of sin is death, but on the other hand, but the gift of God is eternal life if you come through Jesus Christ, our Lord, right? Those are boundaries. You're not being disciplined if you go to hell. That's your consequence because you chose. A lot of people say well, God is sending everybody to hell because you know they're not listen. No, you did that. He said hey, if you want to come to heaven with me and spend the rest of your life with me, this is what you need to do.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 15:03

But if you don't do that and you want to go your own way, well okay. I didn't want a king in Israel. I gave them a king in Israel, but y'all chose that. I didn't want that. I gave you what you wanted, because I'll use it anyway to to you know, using the king as a type and a shadow and all of that stuff.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 15:26

And he said oh you, but I didn't want that for you. Y'all chose that. So we choose where we end up, and that's something else that he really highlights, which will get into as we continue on in this is that we can neglect that we choose. We are an active agent in what goes on in our life. So when mom and dad set boundaries and say you need to work within the confines of these boundaries or else something is gonna happen. Well, that's on you now, because you clearly were were told, hey, if you stay under the shadow of our wings, favor blessing. You know You're gonna have all the things you do. But if you come out under the shadow of his wings, well, now you just expose yourself and now you put yourself at risk.

Patricia: 16:08

Yeah, which is that actually principle was what caught my attention about Shepherding a Child's Heart. You know, I remember that we saw a family, my cousin's family, actually that was the children were very respectful and well behaved and I asked him He's, you know, yeah, I asked him for for, for counsel. But right around that time, I don't know if it was before or after Lydia had, she was little and she had been told not to do something with the car door and she didn't listen and she jammed her hand or something.

Patricia: 16:42

Yeah, the door slammed on her hand and the Lord, you know, I know, for me, impacted me with if we had told her not to go to the street and she would have done the same thing that she did with that door it she could have lost her life. And I know people think, oh, that's so drastic thinking, but it was like in that moment the Lord gave me that, that understanding where I went. We've we have to do this better with we're, and you were actually very big with it, teaching her Hey, and when we're at the park and I say your name, you better hear me. No, even if I whisper, this child had these ears pricked to her father's voice.

Patricia: 17:18

Lydia, she would, you know, right away come running, because she was taught, if we call you, you need to come right away. So, so, in all of that the, the picture that I remember teaching other moms is if it's raining outside and we have an umbrella, the umbrella shelters us from the rain. You know, the rain being the, the consequences of things. But as soon as we walk out from that umbrella, the boundaries, that are set to protect us, not to keep us from having good stuff, because that's what the enemy will come and say oh, you know, your parents are so strict, strict. They don't let you have this, they don't let you do that and what does that do?

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 18:00

that creates in them an idea that we're caging them and we're putting them in prison. Right, which is what the enemy did at the beginning

Patricia: 18:06

in the garden. He tempted, yes, by showing something that Did God really say? And God had said you can have everything Except this one thing. And so what was the focal point? That one thing, and don't we act like that anyway. But the point is when, when, when the Lord shows us, as parents, how to teach our children to be disciples of him. They have to learn how to be disciples of something tangible, what they see, their parents. And if you're, if we're saying you cannot, you know there are certain things that you can't do. The child is coming out from the umbrella and will get wet, hurt, struck by lightning something. Because they're not.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 18:48

I know, I'm getting drastic, but it's to make a point, lightning.

Patricia: 18:52

It's to make a point that you, we have to listen, we need to, we need to teach the children that there is a reason to learn to walk in obedience, because as soon as we we walk in disobedience, we are not protected. We're outside of the protection of our parents and, ultimately, of God. We, as parents, when we're disobedient, that's what we're doing. Yeah, we have the choice to do whatever we want, but if we're walking contrary to what God said, then we are not, we don't have, we're not afforded the protections that he affords his children.

Patricia: 19:30

Yeah so that I know that was what impacted me, the the illustration of an umbrella and, and I think I might have even used it to demonstrate once a child does not do what a parent tells them to do, they walked out and now they are in danger. And I believe the book addresses that we have to learn how to corral them back to the heart of God and have that understanding yeah that's why we had the do you know what you did?

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 19:56

The conversations did you have some?

Lydia: 19:58

Yeah, I just was gonna say, one of the other reasons that consequences are so important is in the real world there are consequences for any action you do in the job, Yep, in your education but once you have graduated in jobs, in any decision you make in life there are consequences, and they're usually more severe Mm-hmm then what you might experience at home, although you won't feel that way in the moment you will not feel that way. You will think it's the worst thing in the world and it's unfair.

Lydia: 20:29

But the world is unfair. That's right, it is. It's extremely unfair, for example, we talked about social media for you to have tweeted something so long ago and it could have been wrong. It could have been a thought that you or something that you expressed in a moment that was incorrect. You may have said way too much in a moment of anger, but see what the consequences are you could lose your job. Your life is out on display for everyone and it's not fair. But that is the world you live in now. Right, and so it is.

Lydia: 21:06

It is a disservice if a parent does not implement a discussion and a consequence well, the consequence, but also the discussion. You're also not afforded a discussion really in real life. So the discussion is actually nice and in preparation for you to reflect on what you did, because once you step out and you're on your own, that's what's going to be, what guides you. You're not going to have someone sitting you down necessarily. Do you know what you did, etc. No, it's just, this is your consequence. So it is so important to instill that within someone to that ability to reflect and to know where to turn, like to the Lord, for repentance, and to know where they can find their answer, because it's not always going to be given to them once they leave the home right.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 21:51

Right, this idea about boundaries and it and it being correlated with you being in prison, in cage, is the way that the enemy deceives, and I want to kind of help us that are listening, that are parents. Think of it this way, because some parents, for whatever reason maybe it was the way they were raised or whatnot they feel like There shouldn't be boundaries for their children and they should be free to learn and experiment and all this stuff. There are certain boundaries when we're on the road that are there, and I like to think of boundaries as guardrails. That's what they're there for. They're guardrails. So where do we see guardrails? All over the streets? No, there in certain places, like if you're turning on a curve. Maybe you got distracted while you were turning on the curve. You'd like to have guardrails there. They're going to bounce you back into the street. Maybe you were half groggy and you fell asleep and you kind of turned over. It'd be nice to have the guardrails there to make sure that you don't go careening off the cliff to your untimely death, whereas if the guardrails are there, at least it bounces you back in. Oh, okay, okay, okay, I'm awake now. I'm awake now. You know, sometimes we act foolishly as children and we just need guardrails to help. You know, whoa? okay, I got a sober up here. I got a kind of little wild there Maybe you were distracted because you were talking to someone in the car. We need to think of them as guardrails. That's what they're there for, because there are times in our life where we may act foolishly, we may be immature, and if we have guardrails there to help, we might not ultimately die over something stupid that we may have done in our youth.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 23:53

So this leads us into this next idea, and I know my wife and I understood this a lot because when we got out of our psychology degrees, there was always this discussion, this dialogue between well, is it nature or is it nurture? Is it nature that determines the outcome of this individual or is it nurture that determines the outcome of the individual? And so he talks about that. And there's, every individual has their own innate qualities. God has wired certain individuals in certain ways. They excel at certain things. They may not excel at other things. It's just something about their innate qualities or personalities. And then, versus their personal experiences, everybody has that, and so what is neglected in this nature, nurture debate is the consideration that our response and interaction to our experiences determines who we be, who we are, who we're going to become. So the recognition that it's not a solely a nature thing, it's not just this is how I'm wired. This is how I am. It's not a complete experience thing, because there's some people that have shared experiences, but why are they so different? Because they chose to respond in a different way. So we can't neglect that. It is the individual's choice, which is why I said it's not like God is sending anybody who know. You're choosing that, knowing what are the boundaries and the parameters to work in, you're choosing this.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 25:33

So what effects or experiences do we have? Well, you do have the structure of your family life. The structure of every individual's family life is going to have some sort of factor is going to affect you in some way. Family values. Some people hold family values, some family values that other families don't hold this high este em, and so there's differing family values. There's roles. The roles of the mother, the father, the eldest, the youngest are differently displayed or enacted in this family than that family over there. The way that this particular family over here resolving conflicts is vastly different than the way that this other family over here resolves their conflicts. Maybe they're afraid of conflict and maybe they don't address those things And maybe over here they're very combative and they hit everything and they're fighting all the time over here.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 26:38

How does a family respond to disappointment? How does a family respond to failure? The family history is also something that is something that affects an individual's experience. So we make mistakes in understanding these influences And for some reason, we assume that children, well, they're just helpless victims of their circumstances. No, they're not. Or maybe we just deny its importance.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 27:10

And when we do that, it causes us to believe the air that if we make a perfect home of shelter and protection, if we're always being positive, if we send them to Christian schools or we homeschool or we provide the best experience possible, then our children is going to turn out okay. Is that true? If we provide all of that, is that true that our children is going to automatically turn out okay? No, no, why? Because it's the children that has got to respond and choose for themselves which way they're going to go. We can provide all of that and we could do it perfectly, but isn't that what God did in the very beginning? He provided everything. It was perfect, there was everything, it was very good, and still we fell away. Proper environment does not equate oh, I'm gonna have a proper child. It doesn't. We might like to, because then we were in control and then we think we have all the power to make sure that this happens. But that's just not true.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 28:22

Now we can't neglect the child's involvement in that whole process, believing he is just a passive participant in this molding process. And that's where we get the scripture about the Potter and the clay. The clay is fashioned and is formed, but when it was in the Potter's hand, if it resisted and continued to resist and it wasn't able to mold it and make it what it wanted, what would the Potter do? He'd pick it up, he'd throw it out the window amongst the rest of the garbage clay that's out there, because it's not working with him, it's not working for him. There has to be a cooperation. There has to be a cooperation. That's how we become one with Christ. As we yield to the Spirit, we become more in line, in tune with the spirit. So there is a non-neutrality of children that has to be dealt with. How do we know? Let's read a scripture Romans, chapter one, 18 through 20. Who's got that one? I forgot the last one I can read it Okay.

Patricia: 29:40

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness, because that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has showed it unto them, for the invisible things of him, from the creation of the worlds, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 30:07

Man is without excuse because man has chosen for himself. In spite of all the things that have been clearly seen, even though, if they're invisible in him from the creation of God, he is still without excuse because he has chosen the pathway that he wanted to choose. Now, children are not neutral. They choose more and more consciously. They choose more and more as they mature physically, mentally, emotionally and psychologically. Children may be unconscious of their religious commitment, but they are never neutral. Now I sent out a podcast recently which reminds me I wonder if that was seeded in me so many years ago, and that's why I brought it up again. I said during the turning of the tables that I've come to realize that sometimes, initially, in our first response to Jesus, we repent, we repent, we turn over all of these tables. But then what happens over time is sometimes, although we've turned over the tables of past sins, we end up erecting new tables and replace those old tables with new tables of idols, and we've got to be aware of that. So, even though a child may unconsciously not realize what his religious commitment is, he has to understand, or come to understand, that he is either gonna bow before the supremacy of God, his creator, or he's gonna bow to the idols that he self-erected in his own heart, cause we have been, since the day we were born, erecting idols, things that we treasure, things that we love, we end up worshiping, and it's those things that we have done in our heart that God wants us to turn over the tables, because he is not gonna share his authority, his supremacy, his love for you with anybody. And he's gonna want you to reciprocate that in return. So children must be trained to recognize the subtle idols that they have erected in their heart And how they, the idols that they have created, not the natural idols of wood and stone, but the idols that they've created in their heart, how they are contrary to the word. They have to be taught that They're not gonna get that on their own. A parent's task is to shepherd him as a creature who worships and then point him to the only one who is worthy of that worship. This question is not will he worship? Everyone worships. It's who are they going to worship? And that's faith. Every man has been given a measure of faith. Some people put their faith in the almighty God, and you see it in their behavior, you see it in their actions, you see it in their obedience. Some people have faith, but their faith is in other things. They're in other gods, they're in other stuff. Everybody has faith. That's not the issue. It's who are they're placing their faith in.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 33:30

So, the implications for child rearing, based upon everything that we've just shared, what are the implications? Well, shepherding a child, we do that by reaching his heart. Since they are creatures made in the image of God, they can only find their fulfillment, they can only find their happiness in knowing and serving their creator. Kids are not selfish and rebellious against authority for lack of maturity. They that's not why. It is the reflections of the heart of the child. That's why they are selfish. That's why they're rebellious. It's nothing to do with maturity. They're reflecting their heart. They are not just growing to grow out of it. Maturity does not mean you will stop worshiping other idols that you have erected Now because, well, let's go back one second. Remember Joseph. He went through a lot. He was the youngest child.

Patricia: 34:42

The second to the youngest.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 34:43

Well, at the time he was the youngest child of 11. Benjamin hadn't been born yet He was the youngest child of 11. He was, by his brothers, sold, became a slave in Egypt. His father was told that he died and he was falsely accused in Potiphar's house. He then went to jail. He spent so many years in jail And, for all intents and purposes, any man that had gone through that that really had done no evil in his own house other than share a dream that he had, he should have been bitter.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 35:29

He should have been cynical about life and about God. He should have been resentful. He should have been angry if he was a man solely shaped by his experiences And that's all there was to it. But because he entrusted himself to God throughout that whole ordeal, he responded in a living relationship with God. He committed himself to his unfailing love and his covenant mercies. So, as we address the issues of the hearts of our children through a combination and this is something that was highlighted to me in the book we address the issues of our heart with our children with a combination of communication on one hand and discipline on the other.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 36:18

I don't know if I ever understood that until I read that book, maybe because of my upbringingg. I've said before, and I'm sorry if I bother you saying it again, but I was never disciplined. My father never touched me in a disciplining pow-pow type of way, never, ever. My mom once, it was just once, but for the most part in my whole life I was never disciplined with the pow-pow okay. And so I guess I came into covenant with the Lord, feeling like, well, you just talk as if talking is gonna solve the issue for most people, and maybe that's what I thought. My dad just talked to me and maybe he guilted me, or maybe he spoke to me in a way that I felt bad about doing this or considering that, or blah, blah, blah, and so maybe that changed my mind. And so that was a good example that sometimes talking is what's necessary, but sometimes foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child and only the rod of correction will drive it far from him, because he just won't listen to reason.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 37:30

But see, I didn't make that up, the scriptures made that up, and so this book helped me recognize that there were scriptures that I had not processed and applied to my new situation of being a father, and so I had to raise my children, and my choice was am I gonna raise my children the way that I was raised, not recognizing that none of that was biblical principles applied to my life, or am I gonna read the word and apply the word as it stated? So the word actually tells us that it's through communication and discipline, not one not the other, but both together. And so we pray that God will work in, he will work around our efforts, and the responses of our children to make them people who know God and honor Him. Thus is the ministry of our father's heart through us. Our utmost desire is to be in the father's heart, to know the father's heart and express the father's heart to you.

j - Jesus M. Ruiz: 38:35

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